Nikia Gray

Full Transcript

ex judicata:  We are delighted to have with us today Nikia Gray. She’s the Executive Director of NALP: National Association for Law Placement. Nikia is really a poster child for the value of the J.D. degree and what else you can do with it. She was a partner at the national firm of Quarles and Brady with a thriving IP practice. Then, she was the head of the DC office, where, through her recruiting efforts, the size of the office grew dramatically.

And then, as if wearing those two hats wasn’t enough, she then took over firmwide recruiting. So, three jobs. Having pretty much done everything you can do as an attorney and certainly within a law firm, she does a 360 to something completely different. She is recruited to head up the prestigious organization NALP. Nikia, thanks so much for being with us.

Nikia Gray:  Neil. It’s my pleasure.

ex judicata:  I think many attorneys have heard of NALP but are probably not really sure of the association’s mandate is and what it does. If you could talk to that a bit and your role.

Nikia Gray:  Sure. It’s my pleasure.  NALP was founded over 50 years ago, and we were founded at a time when there was rampant racism and sexism and really every other “-ism” you can think of in the legal industry.  And if you were a woman or Jewish or gay or Asian or really anything but a straight white man, there were simply jobs you could not obtain in the legal profession. And NALP was founded in response to that. We were founded by 33 schools, two employers, and one bar association. And to try to address that problem and ensure that every law student and lawyer had an equal opportunity to obtain any job in the industry.

And that’s still the core of what we do today. Today, we have over 3200 members, including all the ABA-accredited law schools in the United States, 20 law schools in Canada, and hundreds of legal employers throughout North America. And we have a threefold focus.  We provide data that the industry can rely on through our research reports. We provide community and educational opportunities for our members, and we champion DEI in the legal profession. And in my role as Executive Director, I have the absolute privilege of leading the organization, along with our Board of Directors and ensuring that we are continuing to meet the needs of our members. And we’re driving that positive change in the legal industry. So it’s a true privilege to be part of this community.

ex judicata: That is quite a mandate. That is quite a lot. I must ask because we don’t get many lawyer physicists around here, physics, was your undergraduate major, correct?

Nikia Gray:  Correct.

ex judicata:  At that point, was your game plan to get a degree in that major, work for a few years, and then attend law school and somehow weave the two together? What was your thinking when going to law school?

Nikia Gray: No, not at all. So, I really didn’t know what I wanted to do when I went to college. There were things I was very passionate about, but I didn’t know how to make those things into a career. And this was really before there was career counseling, or at least career counseling that was available to me.

And, you know, neither of my parents had gone to a traditional four-year college. They each eventually got their PhDs, but they did it later in life, going to night school one class at a time. So, their experience was very different than mine, and they didn’t really have a basis for advising me on my career strategy and search. And so I floundered around a bit in college, to be honest with you. And I transferred schools several times before settling in at Penn. And the physics piece came around because I was very strong in math, and people around me were telling me I would have great job prospects if I got a science degree. And so that’s what I did, and that’s why I did it. And it was very intellectually challenging, which I enjoyed, but I wasn’t necessarily particularly passionate about it. Law school came about two years later after I graduated.

Nikia Gray:  When I graduated, I was working as an optical engineer at a small company.  We lost this big contract that we had and my entire department was laid off. And after the shock of that wore off, and the panic stopped, I started looking at getting another job, and I realized I didn’t particularly want to go back to engineering. It was a good job, but not one I was passionate about, and there were things I was passionate about.

I was very passionate about animal rights, and I had started to learn about things like the Animal Legal Defense Fund and places like that, and I really wanted to be part of that movement and really drive that sort of change in the world. And I knew that I couldn’t. I was quite honest with myself that I couldn’t take a public interest position, because I had far too many school loans at that point to be able to do that. But I thought maybe I could find a firm where I could do that type of work pro bono. And, that’s exactly what I did. I was very fortunate to find a position at Quarles and Brady. They supported me both in my IP practice as well as in my pro bono work.

ex judicata:  And it’s so interesting that at Quarles and Brady you start as an associate, then become a partner, then take on these other responsibilities. While we’re thinking about things we don’t often see, it’s very rare to see someone who’s spent their entire career with one law firm. I think it’s like 8% of lawyers. What was it that made that place so special compared to other law firms? I’m sure you got recruiting calls all the time.

Nikia Gray:  I did, and, you know, I get asked this question a lot and it was a few factors. First, it would be completely disingenuous of me if I didn’t acknowledge what was happening in the economy at the time, how much that impacted my career. I graduated in May of 2007, and I started working at Quarles in September. And then by December, the Great Recession hit and the legal job market went into a complete free fall.  And graduates the following year, the class of 2008, either were having their job offers revoked or their start dates delayed, and their salaries reduced, and so forth, and there was no lateral positions at that time at all.  

And so the legal job market, you have to remember, stayed suppressed for quite a few years. And it really didn’t recover until 2015. I made partner in 2016. So nearly the entire time I was an associate, we were in this recession and there were very few jobs in the legal industry, so I was just happy getting a steady paycheck. So that was one factor. And I have to acknowledge that.  But on top of that, I was actually very happy at Quarles. Quarles is this fantastic firm with fantastic people. And I really had a wonderful mentor in this gentleman, Dale Regelman, who was a partner at the firm at the time.  And he taught me to love the practice of law and inspired me to push myself. And at the end of the day, you know, the work is the same at any firm that you go to. And it’s really about the people you’re working with. And I was very fortunate to love my teams at Quarles.

ex judicata: That’s so fortunate because for many of the people that we speak with on our platform, it’s not so much the practice of law that they are not interested in anymore, it’s their environment. It’s the firm that they’re working for. So, we always counsel them to try another work environment before you walk away from the from the law entirely.

Nikia Gray: Yes.

ex judicata: Okay, so you’re a busy IP litigator. After 15 years, you take on the added role of managing the DC office. Did the job find you? Did you find the job? How did that come about?  Because it’s a big undertaking of course.

Nikia Gray:  It definitely is. And it found me.  I was actually in trial at the time in this big patent case when the Chair of the firm called me up and she let me know that the managing partner of the office was stepping down and asked me if I wanted to take over the role. I was a new partner at the time. I think I’d been a partner for about a year at that point. And certainly, managing partner was something I had aspired to, but I thought it was quite a way off in my career. And so, I was very flattered when she called me and I said, if she could just give me one week to finish trial, I would be happy to take the position on.

ex judicata: That’s wonderful. So, then you have that job. And at that point, is it possible to sort of dissect what percentage of your time you were practicing law versus managing the DC office?

Nikia Gray:  It was probably an 80:20 split. So, it was 80% in practice and about 20% of my time managing the office. And of course, that was about a 100 hour week all together.

ex judicata:  Wow. So, you’ve got the that 80-20 and then the position heading lateral recruiting at the entire firm comes up.  I assume that’s because you were such a successful recruiter for your D.C. office that the thinking was let’s turn her loose on everything basically?  Is that kind of how it came about?

Nikia Gray:  It was because of the work I was doing to grow the DC office. By the time I left Quarles, I had all of talent growth under me. So, it was not just attorneys, but also entry level and business professionals. So, everyone in the firm that we hired came through my team.  It was absolutely a lot of work, but I could do it because I had amazing teams working alongside me. I mean, any leader is only as good as their teams, and I really had wonderful teams around me. I will say though, when I took on the talent growth responsibilities, it was with the expectation that I would wind down a lot of my practice and that is what I did. Once I wrapped up my last case, I really reduced my practice.

ex judicata: How long were you working in that role at the firm before you were recruited over to NALP? And how did that whole recruitment come about?

Nikia Gray: Yeah, so it was about three years that I was in that role. And I was, you know, I’ll tell you, I was not looking, I absolutely loved the position I had built for myself at Quarles. And I again, I loved the teams I was working with. I loved being part of the leadership of the firm and found that very inspiring to work to develop individuals so that they could be the best in their careers. So, I definitely wasn’t looking, but someone I knew just passed the job description to me, kind of like slid it under the door almost.

And at the time, NALP had this big search going on for their new executive director, because my predecessor, Jim Leipold, had given his notice that he was going to retire. So, this person passed the job description to me.. And of course, I knew NALP’s wonderful reputation, and I thought the job was interesting. So, I thought, you know, hell, I’ll throw my hat into the ring. We’ll see where this goes. But as I went through the interview process, I just fell in love with the organization. The people are amazing. They are so inspiring to me. The members are just so inspiring to me. I get a lot of energy from them. And I just found myself really wanting to be part of this. And I was fortunate enough that they selected me and I got to be part of this organization.

ex judicata: That’s wonderful. And how long have you been there now?

Nikia Gray:  I joined in October of 2022. So, it’s coming up on two years.

ex judicata: Okay.  And coming in, what were your goals and how have they evolved since you started.

Nikia Gray:  My goals are largely the same as when I started. So last fall NALP underwent a strategic planning process, and as part of that, we set a number of goals for the association. And that’s what I’m really focused on. And they really align with where I thought the needs of NALP were when I stepped into this role.

You know, we’re going to continue focusing on NALP’s leadership in the industry and our leadership on talent growth, DEI and data.  We’re going to continue to support our members as being experts in their fields, and we’re going to continue to ensure that all lawyers and law students have equal access to all of the opportunities in the industry. But we have several new initiatives around how we’re going to do that. Part of it is around communications so that we’re communicating in multiple modalities. So, we’re reaching more of the industry and more of the populations within the industry. And we’re building out new educational opportunities for our members, which we should be releasing next year. And I’m really excited about it. So, it’s an exciting time to be part of NALP, and it’s a lot of fun to push all of this forward.

ex judicata:  And out of out of everything that you’re doing, what do you think is…I’ll take a step back. What do you think the biggest challenges are for the legal industry right now with so much going on?

Nikia Gray:  You know, there’s a couple that I see.  The first one, absolutely, is I’m very concerned about the Supreme Court’s decision banning affirmative action and race conscious admissions policies and the negative impact that that could have on the diversity of our profession. It’s going to be a few years before we see the full impact of that decision on the law schools and the current pipeline, because the current pipeline was created or formed before that case was decided. But we do know how colleges and law schools in those states that had state level affirmative action bans, how they were affected by those state level bans. And specifically, we know that the more selective the college or law school was, the less diverse that it became after those bans were put in place.  

And so, we know that this decision by the Supreme Court is going to have a huge impact on the diversity of the legal profession, and I cannot stress enough how important it is for society’s trust in the rule of law, that our legal profession reflects the communities it serves. So that’s challenge number one, I see. The second big challenge that we’re really focused on at NALP is integrating AI into the legal profession.

You know, lawyers are very conservative and resistant to change. We’re taught to be risk adverse and to think in ways to mitigate risk. And so, for many lawyers, determining how to effectively integrate that technology into their practice and their careers is going to be a challenge for them.

ex judicata:  Sure. What is the overlap at NALP with lawyers and nonlegal jobs opportunities?  Is this a trend you are seeing?

Nikia Gray:  Absolutely. I mean you must remember that most of NALP’s membership are lawyers who are in non-practicing roles. And we are really working to elevate their profiles in the legal industry.  And an elevation that sees this as a profession.  One that requires expertise and provides value to their employers, whether their employers are law schools or law firms or other legal providers.

ex judicata:  I should have qualified it slightly differently. And that is, attorneys who want to move into nonlegal jobs.  So is this a category NALP is involved in?  I’m just trying to get a handle on what the intersection is so we can figure out how we at ex judicata can best help.

Nikia Gray:  So NALP’s members are those who support and enhance legal careers. So, they’re going to be the people who are advising individuals who you are talking about.  Those who have a JD degree, who maybe are in practice and are thinking about pivoting.  NALP members are career service advisors. They’re recruiters. They’re alumni professionals. All of the people who can help lawyers think through that process and think about alternative career options.

ex judicata: Okay, that makes sense. You touched on AI a moment ago. We think it’s going to have a big impact on what we’re doing. From everything we hear, it’s going to dramatically limit the number of young associates that are needed. And as a result, there are going to be more and more nonlegal jobs that are required both for young attorneys already in practice and 3Ls.  But I’m curious if you think that’s the way things will play out.

Nikia Gray: I do agree with you. First of all, I don’t think AI is anything to be afraid of. AI has been around for quite some time. We’ve all been using it. Think about things like Amazon’s Alexa or Apple’s Siri or even the autocomplete predictions when you’re typing. All of that’s AI. So, AI has been here for a long time. I do think the current forms of AI, like ChatGPT and generative AI are going to transform the way lawyers practice law, very similar to how personal computers really revolutionized the practice in the 70s and 80s.

So, for now, though, I don’t see it completely replacing lawyers.  In part because we have these Bar rules that are very protectionist of our profession in terms of the unauthorized practice of law. We also know that AI needs human oversight. But I do think it’s going to become more of a personal assistant to lawyers, and it’s going to replace things like creating a first draft of a contract, doing document review, those things that many junior associates as well as paralegals, legal secretaries do. And I think that’s going to reduce the number of individuals in those roles that firms need.

So that is true. On the positive side, though, I will say, I also think it could have a really positive impact on the access to justice crisis. And the many thousands of people who go to court each year who are either underrepresented or unrepresented.  So, I think it’s going to have some negative and also positive impacts on our profession.

ex judicata:  When we had interviewed, Kelly Testye who I’m sure you know, she was talking about AI and the access to justice being one of her key mandates.  Another one she referenced is terrific for ex judicata and that’s expanding the very definition of what it means to be a JD in the American workforce. She has a wonderful phrase “A JD is a degree in complex problem solving.  And if there’s anything any employer needs, it’s a complex problem-solvers. So, Kellye’s been wonderfully supportive of what we are  doing.

We always like to end with the same question. That’s the tried and true one. But so many people who listen to our interviews are seeking advice from lawyers like yourself who have been successful in moving into nonlegal careers.  What is your advice to someone who right now is a lawyer who is not sure whether they should continue in their career or pursue something that may be more in line with the personality and passions. They feel stuck. They don’t know what to do.

Nikia Gray: You know, I really do believe that the way to have a satisfying and rewarding career is to build your career around what gives you energy.  So think about those moments in your professional life where you felt really lit up from within, and really excited about what you’re doing.  If those moments are not in the actual practice of law, like they weren’t for me, but are in other aspects of your work then a pivot may be right for you, and that’s the direction you should go in.             If you keep leaning in towards what gives you energy, you’re going to build a career you’re very satisfied with.

ex judicata: That makes a lot of sense. I do have one more question, because it’s something that I didn’t realize. I guess there’s a NALP Foundation.  I was looking at the people who belonged to that, those are major, major lawyers.  How does that work with what you do?  What do they do?

Nikia Gray: The NALP Foundation was really a spinoff of NALP that occurred over, 20 years ago now. And it was founded to do longitudinal studies that we couldn’t do within NALP itself.  So now they are our sister organization. They are a separate organization, but we both are very, very supportive of the work we each do. And it’s a very symbiotic relationship.

ex judicata:  Great.  It looked like such an all-star cast.

Nikia Gray:  Absolutely.

ex judicata: That’s terrific. So, with that cast and with you in place NALP, overall, is in very good shape. Thank you. Time passes quickly. We enjoyed it.

Nikia Gray: Thank you.